Ep 2: Family Law Practice: Lasting the Long Haul

Welcome to Therapeutic Conversations, a 3-part series of conversations about the practice of family law in Singapore.

This is a podcast organised by the Family Law & Children’s Rights Working Group, under the auspices of the Singapore Academy of Law’s Professional Affairs and Membership Committee. 

The world of family law practice is wide and all-encompassing, and this podcast is a humble attempt at inviting candid discussions about family law practice and developing thought leadership in this area of law. This pilot series comprises informal conversations amongst the panelists about the family law ecosystem, with each podcast focusing on a specific topic of interest.

In this episode, we will be discussing the topic: ‘Aspirations of a family law practitioner: What will my future look like?’

You may obtain up to 0.5 private CPD points by listening to this episode in full. Log in to your SILE account to record this activity.

Transcript

EP 02: Aspirations of a Family Law Practitioner

Intro
Hello everybody, welcome back to Therapeutic Conversations, a three-part podcast series on the practice of family law in Singapore.

Through this series of conversations with panellists from the Family Law ecosystem, we hope to offer you information and insights on family law practice and developing thoughts leadership in this area of law.


Wen Yi
Welcome everyone to the second episode of our podcast series. We will be discussing the topic: ‘Aspirations of a family law practitioner: What will my future look like?’

My name is Wen Yi, and I'm a partner in the Family and Divorce Practice Group at Harry Elias Partnership. I will be facilitating our conversation today. The family justice ecosystem has been going through a lot of changes in the past decade. So we thought it would be interesting to invite lawyers from different generations to share their thoughts and experiences and how family practice has evolved over the years.

We are privileged to have three speakers from different generations who are called to the bar more than 30 years apart. They are Ms Loh Wai Mooi, Mr Ivan Cheong and Ms. Shannon Chua. Let me tell you a bit more about them.

First off, we have Wai Mooi, who is the most senior member of our panel today.
She was called to the bar in 1985 and has been in practice for 38 years. She is the managing partner of Bih Li and Lee and is a partner in the firm's matrimonial and family practice.


Wai Mooi
Hi, thanks for having me.


Wen Yi
Next, we have Ivan who was called to the bar in 2008 and has been in practice for 15 years. He is a partner and head of the Divorce and Family team of Withersworldwide in Singapore.


Ivan
Hello everyone. Glad to be here.


Wen Yi
And rounding off our panel today is Shannon, our youngest panellist, who was called to the bar in 2017 and has been in practice for six years. She is an associate director at Kalco Law.


Shannon
Hi everyone. I'm honoured to be here today.


Wen Yi
Wai Mooi, as our most senior panellist, perhaps you could kick off the discussion by sharing with everyone your perspectives on how the evolution of family law practice has affected you or your practice.


Wai Mooi
I'm not the most senior practitioner of family law at the bar. Believe me, there are more senior than me. What does that tell you? Being a family law is a good thing, because a family lawyer has a long shelf life.

This is an area of law where life experience counts. As long as there are people, family law will exist. You will never run out of work.

Practice has of course changed over time. Divorces in the old days used to be heard in the High Court, where judges hearing the family cases moved from hearing the divorce through to hearing the ancillary matters all in the same sitting.
In the old days, it's not uncommon for the High Court judges to meet lawyers in chambers after the hearing. I remember one particular judge, the late Justice Lai Kew Chai, who always took the trouble to talk to lawyers, especially young ones, to get to know them better.

As a young lawyer at that time, it encouraged me a lot to know that there is a judge out there who is interested to find out how I was fairing. The bench and bar interactions were a good thing. In family law, I have the privilege of seeing my clients grow older, and their children too! Some children have come back to me as clients, or just to talk. I have learned more about the child caught in the divorce issues through these people.

Family law is the one area of practice that allows you to help the old and the young. As a child representative, I see young children. I am their lawyer. I try to give them the voice they deserve. I also see their parents. Sadly, I sit on the tribunal for the maintenance of parents. And I also see the pains that I've gone through, families broken up by circumstances, and how they end up in court in their golden years.

So, you really get to see the entire spectrum of life.


Wen Yi
Thanks for sharing, Wai Mooi. It's interesting that you mentioned that family lawyers have a long shelf life because it seems to me that a lot of young lawyers nowadays don't wish to specialize in family law because they feel it's not as lucrative as other areas of law.
Shannon, perhaps you could share with us why you decided to practice family law?


Shannon
Thanks, Wen Yi.

Well, before I started practice, I spoke to seniors to find out what areas of law specialization I could go into in the future.

For lawyers starting out their practice, I would say that money is definitely an important factor. Emotional burnout, is also one of the biggest factors that have led to a lot of my batch mates leaving practice, or even staying away from family law altogether.

We see a lot of tears, a lot of sufferings. For me personally, I see that family lawyers are really placed in situations, unique positions to make a real difference in our clients' lives, to bring about peace, to bring about clarity in that process.
Why I do family law is really grounded on my beliefs or my faith as a Christian. And if I could put it that way, I would see it as a calling.


Wen Yi
Thanks for sharing that, Shannon.

Now, Ivan, I know that, unlike Shannon, you actually started off doing general litigation before you specialized in family law. Would you advise young lawyers today to start off with a broader area of practice like you did, or to specialize immediately like Shannon did?


Ivan
Thanks, Wen Yi.

Well, I think that's a very good question. Generally speaking, I would advise young lawyers who are starting out in the practice of law to look at areas like general litigation, and perhaps even consider some corporate advisory work.

Starting off a broader practice really equips the younger lawyers with different skills and knowledge. You have greater flexibility, and you get the kind of experience in various matters. And in doing so, they will get to decide which area of practice you have a greater interest or affinity to.

So for myself, having started off doing a mix of family, civil litigation, and corporate advisory work, I found that the diversity of work was very interesting. It was also able to help me bring a different view to my cases when I was practising for family law. I think starting out also from a broader area of practice would also give the younger lawyer more options. It gives them more exposure and what I would say is probably a more rounded experience.

But certainly do specialise at the outset, If it is clear to you that, for example, family law is your passion and interest, because you get that kind of specialist knowledge and experience. You become more established in your field compared to, for example, peers who have started out on a general basis.

I myself never thought that I would practice family law at the start. I was assigned cases as a junior lawyer and I always had that, you know, a preconceived notion to say that family law is, as Shannon mentioned, one which brings a lot of pain. I couldn't even envisage myself in a situation where I'll be able to help my clients.

But when I started handling those family cases, I found that what I was doing was actually very meaningful, and you realise that you're actually having an impact on your client's life.

So at the end of the day, go ahead. Specialise if that's your passion.


Wen Yi
Thanks for that, Ivan. I think the young lawyers tuning in will really appreciate the advice.

Shannon, you mentioned earlier that you feel that family law was your calling. So it sounds to me like maybe you started off a bit idealistic. How has the reality of your experience and practice differed from your expectations when you first started? Do you think you would have done anything differently?


Shannon
Well, to be frank, it was actually the opposite. I had very low expectations of practice going in, because you hear about the hard work, the difficult journeys that lawyers go through, the long hours.

I think what surprised me was the fact that I actually found myself being able to enjoy the work. You could see the tangible impact that it had on clients' lives, and it allowed me to keep going. I think something that I would have done differently would be to remind myself also that all things should be held in balance.

Hard work, long hours are definitely important in order to hone one's legal skills, to build up that knowledge base that would allow you to serve your clients better.

I would have reminded myself really to prioritise family, prioritise health and loved ones around me as well because it's definitely important, as Wai Mooi mentioned, that family lawyers have a long shelf life. It's important to care for ourselves so that we can also help clients better in the long run.


Wen Yi
Thanks Shannon.

Wai Mooi, you've been in practice for 38 years. Have you ever thought of quitting, and what made you stay?


Wai Mooi
Of course! When I lost my first application, I think it was further and better particulars, I thought of quitting!

Well, I didn't.

Then when I asked one question too many during cross-examination and impaired my own client’s case, I thought of quitting.

“I'm not good enough.”

Well, over the years I've learned to be kinder to myself, to do my best and really let the judge do the rest. We each have our own jobs. The workload doesn't get better or lighter over the years, but it gets easier with practice. What works and what doesn't work will come to you naturally after a while. Learning to read the court better, to answer questions more succinctly, not to irritate the judge? That's a very important skill.

I sort of sensed that I was moving in the right direction I had the opportunity of being asked by a certain lady judge who is now a judge of appeal. She actually, in the course of a hearing, asked me for my thoughts! And I thought, “Wow, since when has a judge ever asked me what I thought?”

That was in the early 2000s. I was a single lawyer up against a team of lawyers, including a senior council whose name I should not mention, but who has a long shadow, and sends shivers down the spine of many lawyers.

The lady judge asked me whether she should interview two children, both about five years old, and she asked me what I thought. I gave my thoughts, and it chuffed me to no end when she agreed with me.

For today, I'm sure we all know we have judicial interviews. That is an area that needs careful management in the development. But it's happy for me to know that I have played a part in building up family law.


Wen Yi
Thanks for sharing the anecdote, Wai Mooi.

Ivan, how about you? 15 years in practice is no mean feat, either. Were there any particularly difficult cases or incidents that made you feel like leaving practice?


Ivan
There was one incident which came to mind, which is probably the closest call. I think that was the first time I actually ever received an official complaint which was lodged by the other party in the proceedings in this case, and the other party was the wife. I was acting for the husband.

The wife, without going into too much detail, was not complying with certain access orders, which had already been made. And so, of course, my client, the husband, was very frustrated. So as part of the process, we did have to serve what's known as a court order basically informing or warning the wife that she can be subject to enforcement action if she continues to breach the access orders.

The wife was very unhappy, and she made an official complaint saying that we had falsified orders of court by adding a penal notice, which was not part of the original order. All these allegations were false, we were cleared. It made me wonder as a junior lawyer. “Is this what family practice is like?”

And I think what helped to reorientate me or reassure me, first and foremost, is having a very good support system as well as supportive colleagues. And I remember what the senior partner said to me. He said, “Oh, take it as a badge of honour, as long as it's not your client who's the one who is lodging a complaint against you.”

I never felt or thought about quitting is that I enjoy what I do. I think as Wai Mooi said, you're able to really have an impact in terms of people's life.

My own personal ethos is that I'm not a quitter. If people tell me “Quit”, I would rather just hang in there and stay on.


Wen Yi
Thanks for sharing, Ivan. It's good to know that you've never thought about quitting in practice.

I think as family lawyers, one major aspect of our work is client management. Have you all noticed a difference in the way that you have had to manage clients over time? Because I imagine that clients nowadays are a lot savvier. They have their own access to legal knowledge. Do you find that maybe they've become a bit more demanding over the years?

This is an open question, but perhaps Shannon, you could go first.


Shannon
Well, I think changes in technology have definitely led to increased access to justice for people. So clients have now more access to legal cases. They may share their experiences with each other. There are more things that clients are aware of and will request to be done in certain ways.

So for example, I find for myself that the primary mode of correspondence with clients has shifted. We do have cases where we set up WhatsApp group chats with my team, with the client, in order to give them updates on their cases. And even some of our clients, we do communicate with them over Telegram because it's more encrypted.

And it may be easier for us to send out a note of advice through WhatsApp than over email. But some clients may expect a faster response time because of that. And for us moving forward, it would really be about learning to manage our emotional boundaries, putting in place safeguards to make sure that we keep watch over our emotional health as well.


Wen Yi
Thanks for that, Shannon. Ivan, what do you think about that?


Ivan
I agree with what Shannon has actually mentioned, that clients are generally more well-informed these days. We're seeing the event of AI, ChatGPT, and what this really means is that the pace of practice is much faster. Clients are more connected, and they would like a quicker response than when I first started practice about 15 years ago.

So as lawyers, I feel that we need to move and adapt with the times. Well, unlike Shannon, I'm still a bit traditional in the sense that email still remains my preferred mode of communication and the reason being: it’s fast, it's effective, and it keeps the client and everyone and the team in the loop.

However, I also do engage with clients on other social media and instant messaging platforms where necessary. But I also agree, it's really important for us to be able to set some ground rules and boundaries. We need to have a balance between work and personal life.

So as an example, for myself, I don't entertain calls from clients on weekends unless it's urgent. And I do specify what is urgent. So for example, things like being served with divorce papers? No, that's not urgent. But if there's a threat to remove children from their primary residence, that is of course, urgent.

So I think it's important to manage client expectations in relation to communication, a quick turnaround time for work and service standards does not mean that the family lawyer does not have any life. I think also apart from communication, we need to understand that clients are more inclined to question advice.

They could have read the judgment of the internet, or they have to talk to friends, or they have received information. And they might say, “Oh, do you know this case off the internet? I read that the home-maker wife received 50% of the assets. Why can't I get 50% of the assets?”

And you would have to explain and take them through to say, “Oh, you know, it depends on the facts of the case, like the length of the marriage, whether they have children, the contributions which are made.”

As family lawyers these days, we need to be ready to answer these questions quickly and to be able to anticipate clients’ needs.


Wen Yi
Thanks, Ivan.

I find that a lot of young lawyers do struggle with being able to get clients to accept their advice because, like you mentioned, clients will challenge and question your advice.

Wai Mooi, given your seniority, I would assume that whatever you say goes with your client.


Wai Mooi
Oh, no, not at all. I wish that's the case sometimes, but no! You know, every client who walks through the door actually walks in with Mr Google. He is able to search for himself, check for himself, get advice, second opinions from other lawyers too.

What has changed over the years for me, it's probably my ability to explain to the client the law in simple terms and prepare the client better for the way forward. What is very important is to set boundaries like someone mentioned earlier. There are clients who hire lawyers and use them as if they are hired guns.

In my years of practice, I've had a client who wanted me to give, in his words, “as much grief as possible to the other side.”

It takes a lot when you are younger to refuse work. But I think at the end of the day, you must have your moral compass. You must know what is integrity. You must stick to it.

Turning away work is the better option than doing something which you know is wrong, and you know is to achieve an ulterior motive. So sometimes I've had instances where I have to tell the client, “Sorry, it looks like we can no longer work together. Perhaps you will find a better lawyer somewhere else. Perhaps our styles don't match.”

So it's not true. Not everybody listens to me all the time.


Wen Yi
Thanks for sharing, Wai Mooi. Okay, I have one last question for all our speakers.
Do you have any words of encouragement for aspiring family law practitioners?

Wai Mooi, perhaps you could get us started?


Wai Mooi
Family law is an interesting area.

Let me tell a story. Some years ago, I think it was early years in my practice. I was having a hearing before, of course, at that time, High Court judge, and the issue was whether a settlement had been arrived at during a case conference before the registrar. My opponent was a senior family practitioner and I took over the file from another law firm.

To my great surprise, the judge looked at us and said to the senior lawyer, “Why don't you just call the registrar?”

And lo and behold, within the hour the registrar appeared, and I had to cross-examine the registrar. Well, I'm only glad that the judge agreed with me that there was no settlement, and the case went on. It was a bitter case. We fought to the end and of course, there was an outcome.

Fast-forward two years down the road, the client called me one morning from Hong Kong and said, “Hey, Wai Mooi, are you sitting down?”

I said, “Yeah, what's the problem?”

“Is it okay if I remarry my ex-wife?”

I can only remember bursting out in laughter and saying, “Of course you can! Do what you want to do!”

So the practice of law, family law in particular, has its moments of surprise, sheer fear and delight.


Wen Yi
That's good advice. Ivan, how about you?


Ivan
So my advice would be basically, work hard but play hard too. Don't be afraid to make mistakes because you will. And what is more important is that you should learn from those mistakes.

As family lawyers, we should never lose sight of your personal ‘why’. Why you decided to practice family law in the first place, because that is the motivating factor which will keep you going through the rigours of practice, and it will determine whether you stay and practice for five years, fifteen years or thirty-eight years and more.


Wen Yi
Shannon, do you have any words of encouragement?


Shannon
I would say, don't be afraid to ask. If you encounter any issues, don't be afraid to sound out. And if you feel overwhelmed, don't be afraid to tell someone because that's how we all grow and learn.


Wen Yi
Thanks for that. I think we can all agree that family law is constantly shifting and evolving, and that's one aspect of what makes family practice so exciting for all of us. With that, we'll bring this conversation to a close.

Thank you, everyone, for all the insights and anecdotes that you've shared.
I hope we have inspired more young lawyers to join family practice from our conversation today. Please tune in for the next episode.


Outro
We hope that this episode has enabled you to have a glimpse into what family practice entails and provided you with invaluable words of advice along the way.

The next and final episode will focus on advocacy in the therapeutic justice landscape with our guests, driving in to discuss a challenging and highly contested child custody case in Singapore.